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	<title>Comments on: Bringing Accessibility into the Development Process</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/</link>
	<description>A pragmatic approach to web standards and accessibility</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: Light</title>
		<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-20568</link>
		<dc:creator>Light</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-20568</guid>
		<description>decimus, I think gooogle can help you to translate.
And thanks, good investigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>decimus, I think gooogle can help you to translate.<br />
And thanks, good investigation.</p>
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		<title>By: בלוגה של אמא &#187; links for 2007-09-26</title>
		<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-20290</link>
		<dc:creator>בלוגה של אמא &#187; links for 2007-09-26</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-20290</guid>
		<description>[...] Bringing Accessibility into the Development Process- Standards Schmandards (tags: accessibility)        ﻿ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] Bringing Accessibility into the Development Process- Standards Schmandards (tags: accessibility)        ﻿ [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Abhishek Singh</title>
		<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-16481</link>
		<dc:creator>Abhishek Singh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-16481</guid>
		<description>Your website should meet basic industry good practice benchmarks, like valid HTML and CSS. Then, your website should meet at the very least Priority 1 (of the W3C WAI WCAG).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your website should meet basic industry good practice benchmarks, like valid HTML and CSS. Then, your website should meet at the very least Priority 1 (of the W3C WAI WCAG).</p>
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		<title>By: decimus</title>
		<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-15445</link>
		<dc:creator>decimus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 07:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-15445</guid>
		<description>hi,
is there any possibility to translate this post to Polish?
Let me know, thx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi,<br />
is there any possibility to translate this post to Polish?<br />
Let me know, thx</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Peter Krantz</title>
		<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-4676</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Krantz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 07:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-4676</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Rosie:&lt;/strong&gt; Thank you for your comment. In my experience testers do not have direct control of accessibility during the development phase of an iteration (they may however be testing for it). That is why I didn't include them. It is better if as many tests as possible can be automated and fixed directly by the developer before it reaches QA, right?

Automated testing (in general) is not "very limited". In fact regression testing a modern software development project demands automated testing.

When you write "it will find some issues, but it will seriously not find many others" are you referring to Raakt or automated tools in general? If you are referring to the latter I think you may be misinformed on how many of these tools work. There are many tools available that automates testing of functionality (e.g. user scenarios). Developers define the testing scenario which can then be run automatically whenever there is a code change. Check &lt;a href="http://www.drivenqa.com/resources/selenium-web-application-functional-testing/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Selenium&lt;/a&gt; for an example.

As for automated accessibility testing I believe you are proposing a false dichotomy. Just because an automated test does not find &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; accessibility issues it does not make it useless. Finding &lt;em&gt;some&lt;/em&gt; issues are better than none, right?

Please note that I do not prepose replacing manual testing. I just want to reduce the number of issues reaching QA and thereby lower the project development costs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Rosie:</strong> Thank you for your comment. In my experience testers do not have direct control of accessibility during the development phase of an iteration (they may however be testing for it). That is why I didn&#8217;t include them. It is better if as many tests as possible can be automated and fixed directly by the developer before it reaches QA, right?</p>
<p>Automated testing (in general) is not &#8220;very limited&#8221;. In fact regression testing a modern software development project demands automated testing.</p>
<p>When you write &#8220;it will find some issues, but it will seriously not find many others&#8221; are you referring to Raakt or automated tools in general? If you are referring to the latter I think you may be misinformed on how many of these tools work. There are many tools available that automates testing of functionality (e.g. user scenarios). Developers define the testing scenario which can then be run automatically whenever there is a code change. Check <a href="http://www.drivenqa.com/resources/selenium-web-application-functional-testing/" rel="nofollow">Selenium</a> for an example.</p>
<p>As for automated accessibility testing I believe you are proposing a false dichotomy. Just because an automated test does not find <em>all</em> accessibility issues it does not make it useless. Finding <em>some</em> issues are better than none, right?</p>
<p>Please note that I do not prepose replacing manual testing. I just want to reduce the number of issues reaching QA and thereby lower the project development costs.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosie Sherry</title>
		<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-4589</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosie Sherry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 00:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-4589</guid>
		<description>It's kind of typical that the software testing is not really considered.

From experience, typical scenario is design, develop, testing (functional, usability, accessibility), content.

The projects I usually work on hand over sites with dummy text, it is usually down to the customer to maintain the content.

Whilst I understand your attempt at creating a tool to identify problems straight away, automated testing is really very limited.  Yes it will find some issues, but it will seriously not find many others.  The problem with checklist style automation is that only the checklists are tested for, what about everything else?  You may find that the focus ends up becoming on passing the automated tests rather than focusing on accessibility issues.

What about compatibility, functionality, user scenarios, performance?

Just like software testing, usability and accessibility should be seen as part of the development process, considered as early on as feasable.  Why not treat accessibility as software testing?  I'm a &lt;a href="http://www.drivenqa.com" rel="nofollow"&gt;software tester&lt;/a&gt; and test for accessibility when doing my tests.

You may find this post on the topic of software automation from James Bach of interest: http://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/58

Test Automation 
Rule #1: A good manual test cannot be automated.
Rule #1B: If you can truly automate a manual test, it couldn’t have been a good manual test.
Rule #1C: If you have a great automated test, it’s not the same as the manual test that you believe you were automating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s kind of typical that the software testing is not really considered.</p>
<p>From experience, typical scenario is design, develop, testing (functional, usability, accessibility), content.</p>
<p>The projects I usually work on hand over sites with dummy text, it is usually down to the customer to maintain the content.</p>
<p>Whilst I understand your attempt at creating a tool to identify problems straight away, automated testing is really very limited.  Yes it will find some issues, but it will seriously not find many others.  The problem with checklist style automation is that only the checklists are tested for, what about everything else?  You may find that the focus ends up becoming on passing the automated tests rather than focusing on accessibility issues.</p>
<p>What about compatibility, functionality, user scenarios, performance?</p>
<p>Just like software testing, usability and accessibility should be seen as part of the development process, considered as early on as feasable.  Why not treat accessibility as software testing?  I&#8217;m a <a href="http://www.drivenqa.com" rel="nofollow">software tester</a> and test for accessibility when doing my tests.</p>
<p>You may find this post on the topic of software automation from James Bach of interest: <a href="http://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/58" rel="nofollow">http://www.satisfice.com/blog/archives/58</a></p>
<p>Test Automation<br />
Rule #1: A good manual test cannot be automated.<br />
Rule #1B: If you can truly automate a manual test, it couldn’t have been a good manual test.<br />
Rule #1C: If you have a great automated test, it’s not the same as the manual test that you believe you were automating.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-3780</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2007 20:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-3780</guid>
		<description>I quite agree :-) I've developed things in the past for projects similar to Raakt - unfortunately for clients without the foresight to release it to the world.

Once you get your automated tests focussing on the easy stuff, it leaves you free to spot the other issues earlier. It also helps with developer education - since they're exposed to many of the issues throughout the development process. 

I'm thoroughly sick of folk who want to keep accessibility / usability / whatever apart from the development process. It just helps make bad products.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I quite agree :-) I&#8217;ve developed things in the past for projects similar to Raakt - unfortunately for clients without the foresight to release it to the world.</p>
<p>Once you get your automated tests focussing on the easy stuff, it leaves you free to spot the other issues earlier. It also helps with developer education - since they&#8217;re exposed to many of the issues throughout the development process. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m thoroughly sick of folk who want to keep accessibility / usability / whatever apart from the development process. It just helps make bad products.</p>
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		<title>By: Antonio Volpon</title>
		<link>http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-3776</link>
		<dc:creator>Antonio Volpon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Mar 2007 18:05:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2007/rapid-accessibility-feedback/#comment-3776</guid>
		<description>Interesting post.
Some years ago in evolt.org i published an article in evolt.org, "&lt;a&gt;" that addressed the need of considering accessibility issues in every part of the project, from the project analysis to the maintenance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post.<br />
Some years ago in evolt.org i published an article in evolt.org, &#8220;<a>&#8221; that addressed the need of considering accessibility issues in every part of the project, from the project analysis to the maintenance.</a></p>
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