Comments on: Information structures: The grouped table http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2004/information-structures-the-grouped-table/ A pragmatic approach to web standards and accessibility Mon, 01 Dec 2008 23:05:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Thomas http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2004/information-structures-the-grouped-table/#comment-150 Thomas Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:01:09 +0000 http://localhost:8888/?p=11#comment-150 <p>Interesting read. However, it is pretty well established at this point that Jabba is male, and since Luke and Leia are twins there seems to be some error in your table data for 'age'. Although hyperspace travel presumably would create some weird temporal effects, I think that the one doing more space travel (Leia in this example) would age less, not more, that the other one, according to the theory of relativity.</p> Interesting read. However, it is pretty well established at this point that Jabba is male, and since Luke and Leia are twins there seems to be some error in your table data for ‘age’. Although hyperspace travel presumably would create some weird temporal effects, I think that the one doing more space travel (Leia in this example) would age less, not more, that the other one, according to the theory of relativity.

]]> By: Juan Carlos http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2004/information-structures-the-grouped-table/#comment-115 Juan Carlos Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:24:42 +0000 http://localhost:8888/?p=11#comment-115 <p>Don't rely on Jaws alone. It might be the most popular, but it isn't necessarily that good. Furthermore, regardless of whether it is good or bad, other screen readers are quite different. It is hard to create HTML modified for screen reader optimization as that might impact your ideal semantics.</p> <p>Your example suggests possibly the use of two <thead> tags.</p> <p>Things like scope, and axis in theory will help users navigate the table much more easily, but that requires Jaws and others to get on board and support this stuff (I think Jaws has some limited support).</p> Don’t rely on Jaws alone. It might be the most popular, but it isn’t necessarily that good. Furthermore, regardless of whether it is good or bad, other screen readers are quite different. It is hard to create HTML modified for screen reader optimization as that might impact your ideal semantics.

Your example suggests possibly the use of two <thead> tags.

Things like scope, and axis in theory will help users navigate the table much more easily, but that requires Jaws and others to get on board and support this stuff (I think Jaws has some limited support).

]]> By: patrick h. lauke http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2004/information-structures-the-grouped-table/#comment-66 patrick h. lauke Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:33:40 +0000 http://localhost:8888/?p=11#comment-66 <p>the problem with approach #2 would be the navigability of the table with a screenreader like JAWS. splitting the table up into separate ones makes it that little bit more difficult to, say, just go down row by row while staying in a particular column.</p> <p>not looked too hard at it, and don't have JAWS here at home, but it appears to be a classic example of a complex, multi-dimensional table where headers should be identified via headers/id (and possibly axis), rather than scope. <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#multi-dimension">W3C HTML4.01 spec - Tables in HTML documents</a></p> the problem with approach #2 would be the navigability of the table with a screenreader like JAWS. splitting the table up into separate ones makes it that little bit more difficult to, say, just go down row by row while staying in a particular column.

not looked too hard at it, and don’t have JAWS here at home, but it appears to be a classic example of a complex, multi-dimensional table where headers should be identified via headers/id (and possibly axis), rather than scope. W3C HTML4.01 spec - Tables in HTML documents

]]> By: Pete http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2004/information-structures-the-grouped-table/#comment-58 Pete Wed, 05 Jan 2005 10:52:34 +0000 http://localhost:8888/?p=11#comment-58 <p>Joe, thank you for your comment. Using a definition list is not recommended. Jaws for example, reads definition lists as "Definition list of X items. [dt text] equals [dd text]". This would make a grouped table confusing for a screen reader user.</p> <p>Using multiple tables creates the same issues as approach #2: repeated column headers and possible problems with column alignment.</p> <p>Using headings could be an alternative in approach #1 if one makes sure those headings exist in a proper heading context.</p> <p>Thhis article is meant as a starting point for a discusssion around a good solution. I have seen many web applications where this is an issue.</p> Joe, thank you for your comment. Using a definition list is not recommended. Jaws for example, reads definition lists as “Definition list of X items. [dt text] equals [dd text]“. This would make a grouped table confusing for a screen reader user.

Using multiple tables creates the same issues as approach #2: repeated column headers and possible problems with column alignment.

Using headings could be an alternative in approach #1 if one makes sure those headings exist in a proper heading context.

Thhis article is meant as a starting point for a discusssion around a good solution. I have seen many web applications where this is an issue.

]]> By: Joe Clark http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2004/information-structures-the-grouped-table/#comment-54 Joe Clark Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:17:54 +0000 http://localhost:8888/?p=11#comment-54 <p>I don't know why you can't just use headings; multiple tables with caption; or a definition list. Your example table seems too fictitious for us to really decide which is best, or at least which is least bad.</p> I don’t know why you can’t just use headings; multiple tables with caption; or a definition list. Your example table seems too fictitious for us to really decide which is best, or at least which is least bad.

]]> By: Greg http://www.standards-schmandards.com/2004/information-structures-the-grouped-table/#comment-2 Greg Mon, 01 Nov 2004 23:07:36 +0000 http://localhost:8888/?p=11#comment-2 <p>Interesting article. This will be very helpful for a webapp we are developing right now.</p> Interesting article. This will be very helpful for a webapp we are developing right now.

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